#271 Power to the People Webinar: “Flamingos, cockroaches and youth revolts: what do they want, what do they get?”

00:00:00: And welcome to this Power To The People webinar.

00:00:02: PowerToThePeople is a special webinar format created around the democratic odyssey, the first traveling European peoples' assembly.

00:00:09: PowertoThePeople was initially envisioned by a coalition of many European actors working towards citizen inclusion and deliberative democracy.

00:00:16: Today we have Europe Calling and the European University Institute who are taking lead for this webinar.

00:00:22: If you're joining from Europe Calling This also our two hundred seventy-first Webinar.

00:00:27: I would like to particularly welcome our six fascinating guests and the nearly six hundred registered people who are still joining from all over Europe.

00:00:37: We will start this session with reports from different youth revolts, we have three speakers for that after which there'll be a chance ask questions by raising your hand.

00:00:48: then also speakers reflect on local activities.

00:00:56: My name is Amelie Passmanns, I work at Europe Calling and am hosting this evening together with Andrea Geiber from the Florian School of Transnational Governance.

00:01:03: Before we begin i just have a few brief announcements mostly on technical side.

00:01:09: as said earlier will be mainly speaking English today so if you need any assistance that would help to interpreters can select language using small globe icon in control bar might also find it under more.

00:01:35: As always, with your calling you can also ask questions.

00:01:38: Today we're using the Q&A function directly in Zoom for this so that you could answer any question there and comment on other people's questions.

00:01:48: And per usual, the Power to The People series is also recorded and then posted online on YouTube as a podcast.

00:01:54: So please bear in mind when asking questions that it's all for the announcements I'm gonna hand over to Andrea or short introduction.

00:02:07: Thank you very much Emily and good afternoon.

00:02:09: Good evening everybody.

00:02:12: News of twenty-twenty six.

00:02:14: nearly three quarters of the world population Seventy-four percent or six billions live in autocracies.

00:02:22: Only seven per cent of the world population, around zero point six billion living liberal democracies.

00:02:29: still many maybe not in this call tend to associate autocratic tendencies with more effective decision making one that is really freed from bureaucratic burdens.

00:02:41: but we will come back to this full circle.

00:02:44: My name is Andrea Gaiba, and together with Amelie I am your co-host for today.

00:02:49: We will discuss the role of anti-corruption protests in creating more democratic spaces.

00:02:56: Most of you have read The Leaflet Of The Event where we say that corruption has a way to become invisible very suddenly when provisioning public services is absent or even worse there's death toll attached to it.

00:03:15: I think of the accidents in the Nobisad stations, claiming sixteen victims or the over a dozen students committing suicide in India as result of exam paper leaks.

00:03:26: but there is question we kept asking ourselves when were organized.

00:03:31: this event was so invisible at first place?

00:03:35: Or rather just complex to act against in structured way?

00:03:40: Similarly, the popular response that is mobilized around protests does it simply make visible what's already there?

00:03:50: What is supported by the discontent of a majority or rightfully loud

00:03:57: minority?".

00:03:58: So very local news from the weekend.

00:04:01: The Italian city of Reggio Calabria held elections to replace new mayor in parliament.

00:04:07: he could not hold both offices.

00:04:09: The elections had a twenty-two point three percent turnout this last weekend.

00:04:16: Is there even democracy?

00:04:19: What does such system deliver and for

00:04:21: whom?".

00:04:22: This is region riddled with corruption, yet it's not only to be defined by it.

00:04:28: There are multiple networks and actors fighting back on criminal organizations bottom up And despite the institutions Not thanks them Yet, they do not find a political space in traditional elections.

00:04:44: So what happens when people take this to the streets?

00:04:48: Let's shift gears now to a broader regional focus Serbia and Albania India and South Asia.

00:04:55: And I want to give the floor back to Amelie for this first part of the conversation.

00:05:03: Yes, thank you Andrea.

00:05:05: I would say let's just start with our first speaker and that is Gressa Hasser.

00:05:10: She's an expert on Albania in the Western Balkans With a particular focus on the rule of law state capture democratic backsliding and electoral politics.

00:05:19: she's a PhD candidate at The University of Graz in Austria And her current research focuses on the twenty sixteen judicial reforms in Albania and broader processes of Europeanization.

00:05:31: They said the floor is yours.

00:05:33: Hi, and thank you for the invitation.

00:05:36: I'm glad to be part of this panel discussion tonight.

00:05:40: Um i'd like to provide a general overview Of the situation in Albania's perthe.

00:05:47: last months Starting mid-may we have had uninterrupted protests And from the beginning of june until recently as were having This conversation protest continue In Tirana And it's interesting to see that this protest movement is very unprecedented in Albania's post-communist history.

00:06:11: For the first time, citizens are mobilizing independently against the entire political establishment, rejecting both the socialist party led by Prime Minister Adirama and the opposition Democratic Party of Albania represented by its historic leader Saliberisca.

00:06:32: Having emerged from one of the harshest communist dictatorships in Eastern Europe, Albania has long been marked fear, weak civic participation and the close entanglement of political power private business interests an organized crime.

00:06:53: So The current protests, the Flamingo protest or as it is otherwise known the flamingo revolution represent more than opposition to a single development.

00:07:07: They started initially against a luxurious development project in the Viosanarta Lagoon and Cezanne Island, which is an environmentally protected area for which the government changed law on protected areas to open up way of intervention.

00:07:24: Also it's important that this was back by Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump so Donald Trump son-in-law.

00:07:34: But it's very important to understand that the current protests are not only against this specific development project.

00:07:44: They signal, many citizens have overcome their fear of challenging the regime and demanding systematic change.

00:07:54: so they should be understood as an accumulated anger for thirty five years living in a semi-autocratic regime where they've been met just with different forms of autocratic governance.

00:08:09: You know, during these thirty-five years it would be very difficult to call the regimes that have led Albania from nineteen ninety one until now democratic.

00:08:23: yes They do have Democratic elements but there are not Democratic.

00:08:29: Albania is a competitive semi-authoritarian regime and these protests should be understood as a rejection of this political system in its entirety.

00:08:43: People are struggling at the moment for the rule of law, and for democracy.

00:08:48: Albania together with Montenegro is an accelerated EU integration process.

00:08:56: Citizens in Albania are very pro-European and they want to become part of the European Union.

00:09:02: They just do not want to make a compromise on rule of law and democracy, so we want this process to involve democratization uncompromisingly.

00:09:16: This is where the situation is at the moment.

00:09:18: And it's interesting to see also how, um... The attitude including the slogan has changed from beginning of protest so end May and beginning June until now because it has evolved.

00:09:31: not for sale but new Albania reflecting exactly this broader demand for democracy rule-of-law accountable institution an end to a chronic capitalist system that many Albanians believe it serves the political and economic elites rather than, um... Rather then public.

00:09:54: On another note I want to say this Vernet's project is not an isolated case but part of a broader pattern through legal changes such as the twenty-twenty four amendments for the law on protected areas or two thousand fifteen strategic investment law, which is a framework that allows the government to expropriate lands or property.

00:10:24: To give it to private business?

00:10:26: The moment that gives them this strategic investor status even if the owners of the land do not want sell the land you know anything with.

00:10:37: So the law is being used to justify everything that's happening with this project.

00:10:45: The government has created mechanisms that make it easier for politically connected investors, to develop such projects in environmentally protected land or public lands.

00:11:00: This concentration of discretionary power, combined with weak transparency and limited institutional oversight has fueled a widespread perception that the state no longer acts in public interest.

00:11:19: Because similar conflicts like the one we've seen in Svernet's Viosonarta Lagoon have happened elsewhere of the country at the Adriatic Sea, residents in similar manner have protested against a very similar project taking place there.

00:11:41: We've also seen this happening in the center of Tirana where the historical centre has been shrunk and opened up the way for intervention.

00:11:50: what's also special structure against corruption organized crime in Albania is indicating that all this construction work money laundering actually, and organized crime.

00:12:05: So this specific project is not unique in itself.

00:12:09: it has gotten a lot of media attention international media attention I have to say because initially Media in Albania has boycotted it And that's due the fact that members of the Trump family are involved In The Project.

00:12:24: So anyway, this is just to give you a broader overview of what's been happening until now.

00:12:29: This the context and protests continue.

00:12:34: The government has reacted in an aggressive way because protesters especially lately.

00:12:41: Almost every day there are arrests of activists and citizens, I mean in Tirana these days.

00:12:47: you can get arrested only if your just standing on the street where protest is about to take place.

00:12:56: So all this arrests are unlawful.

00:13:00: yet as i mentioned people have finally overcome fear.

00:13:05: after thirty five years.

00:13:08: they're not backing off.

00:13:09: They continue to be in the streets, they continue to protest...they have several demands of course.

00:13:15: a first demand is for this environment like this project in this environmentally protected area to be cancelled.

00:13:22: another demand is For the law on protected areas The amendments sorry the amendments In the law for protected areas To Be repealed.

00:13:32: and Of Course ultimately protestors want the resignation of Prime Minister Adirama and the entire government that they feel have failed Albanian citizens.

00:13:48: It's interesting to see that the protest movement itself encompasses a variety of political actors, you have left-wing activists including radical activist feminists almost all LGBTQ organizations are in the protest, but at the same time you also have ultra-nationalist conservatives, conservative actors and some proto-fascists individuals.

00:14:19: So it shows that discontent with a regime is so great.

00:14:29: All actors from all ideological spectrums are on the ground protesting against their regime and again, the entire political establishment.

00:14:40: So this is where situation is.

00:14:43: Thank you very much for explaining in a bit of context.

00:14:49: I think we would just go onto next speaker then come back to questions And the next speaker is Luka Gandic.

00:14:57: Luca as a student of graphical engineering and design, an activist in Serbia... ...and he's also an alumni for the European Youth Parliament just like myself!

00:15:07: So Luka you have the floor?

00:15:12: Okay first I thank you for inviting me to give the opportunity for Serbian students to have their voice platformed on such large important scale.

00:15:25: One thing that I can say from the start is, just repeat what Gresa said and exchange Albania for Serbia in most of things.

00:15:33: It's incredibly bizarre how similar these situations are but again it isn't.

00:15:40: when you realize that the modus operandi or autocratic regime in Belgrade and Tirana are rather similar even to some actors are similar, for example Jarod Kursner who also wanted to buy the central army base in Belgrade which is like a big administrative building and turn it into hotel.

00:16:09: It's ruined now!

00:16:11: It has been bombed during the NATO bombings in night-night-nine.

00:16:15: they want to buy them make luxury resort.

00:16:17: obviously people of Serbia rose up but was in middle.

00:16:21: these protests like another nail in the coffin of the authoritarian regime, which we see the current downfall off.

00:16:29: The regime of Alexander Wurste and the Serbian Progressive Party.

00:16:33: Now I cannot be as concise or as simple because there have been two years of protests in Serbia And that they had so many things happening In these two years.

00:16:43: obviously it all started not far from where i'm sitting right now on my hometown of Novi Sad with the collapse of the canopy, which killed sixteen people and I say killed because their deaths could have been avoided.

00:16:59: Their deaths are directly caused by corruption and incompetence.

00:17:04: The railway station in Novi-Sad has been renovated And it was said to be renovated at the end of.

00:17:12: the renovations were supposed to be in November of twenty four or near that time but they fast-tracked these renovations because of the SNAP elections that were being held in December, twenty three.

00:17:25: The railway station was opened almost a year and a half before the deadline with lot of press on a lot of brownie points political brownie point for this.

00:17:35: every progressive party who you know showed off to the realization as an example of rapid progress revitalization of the infrastructure over country.

00:17:48: yet in November twenty four.

00:17:53: They got the elections.

00:17:54: they won the elections but they sent a sentence sixteen people to death with those renovations.

00:18:01: and that was something that spark firstly shock sadness, and then floods and floods of fury an anger not because of their apparent and very obvious guilt in all this, but because of the response to it.

00:18:22: There wouldn't be an issue if they accepted that there would be any issue But two years worth of issues for them If they accepted their guilt.

00:18:32: They had SNAT elections back then.

00:18:35: If they resigned or said okay we messed up We're gonna fix this somehow, but no.

00:18:43: The things that they did... They deflected it on the day of the canopy collapsing On the website of the state company which did renovations Up until the first November of twenty-four when tragedy happened You could go and download the plans And documentation Of reconstruction of railway station.

00:19:06: On the first of November, they removed it.

00:19:08: They deleted it.

00:19:10: Their first instinct was to lie To hide their guilt in all that And then through a massive number of spins and The narrative culminated In there statement.

00:19:23: right now Which is your position?

00:19:25: purposefully Detonate the canopy in order for regime to be brought down.

00:19:34: You can obviously You don't know if you should be angry or laugh to this ridiculous amount of craziness that they have been presenting us.

00:19:47: But the Serbian people finally decided in a similar manner, that Albanian people had decided enough is enough and these regimes which do not have an ideology on their own except for hypocrisy in order to bring them down and have a new wave of changes and reforms.

00:20:10: Serbia has had one attempt at this, when we talked about Milosevic and his Karat regime.

00:20:17: many young people from Europe don't know that.

00:20:20: but twenty six years ago much the things which are seen right now in Serbia already happened.

00:20:26: there's been snap elections where the autocrats lost like we're gonna having snap election on October hopeful and positive about that.

00:20:37: we're going to see some positive change in Serbia, yet finally have a government which will work for the country not only their pockets but interests.

00:20:51: The demands evolved throughout these two years have been is a rather long and complex story, but the most important thing that differentiated this protest from the previous ones we had in Serbia.

00:21:05: In the last fourteen years of the autocratic authoritarian regime of the Serbian Progressive Party are a couple... The first one was there's no leader.

00:21:13: The student movement in Serbia is very decentralized And all decision making processes happening through the principles of direct democracy through student plenums, where we gather and vote on each decision respectively.

00:21:35: And the second one is that all of the people that we suggested for example now they were having elections so we made a student list.

00:21:43: All these people have not been involved with politics.

00:21:46: They don't have diminished trust in their people because like in Albania.

00:21:52: The goal of these protests are well, let's not say go primarily but the one that has been crystallized throughout.

00:21:59: These two years is a complete renovation of this system both position and opposition to government and anti-government voices which we have heard in past fourteen years Which had not been competent enough To make any change.

00:22:16: The man still stands Of student movements.

00:22:19: We blockaded our universities and our faculties in order to bring light these issues, In order have the documentation of railway station renovation exposed to public.

00:22:30: finally.

00:22:31: And see who was... The names were responsible for tragedy To stop unjust arrests and unjust proceedings against people who genuinely just wanted justice nothing else to have these elections and many of the other demands which we can go in about.

00:22:55: We even had, you know, the sonic weapons that were used against protesters who said they are not sonic weapons.

00:23:04: it was a choreographed movement for people.

00:23:07: there is protest in Belgrade on March where they use this L-Rod weapon during the sixteen minutes of silence.

00:23:16: when we gave respect It was blasted through the crowd.

00:23:23: and then these people, they had problems with their pacemakers.

00:23:28: They have genuine health issues with it.

00:23:31: Now we have state official bodies of judiciary claiming that this is all choreographed And there were no sonic weapon use.

00:23:42: So this blatantly using tools to manipulate and lie in a way which is so flagrant and so incomprehensible that you can see the writing on the wall, changes inevitable.

00:23:59: And they are extremely afraid of it!

00:24:03: Thank You very much Luca.

00:24:05: It's also very intense to hear from this situation but thank you for letting us kind get into context a bit.

00:24:15: We will definitely come back to you, I think especially with the upcoming elections there's a lot of talk about and ask questions.

00:24:22: I would just like to remind the speakers if they can please try sticking to The Five Minutes!

00:24:27: There is lots to talk but we do want to go through all them.

00:24:31: then maybe have more time in the end for questions.

00:24:34: So moving on our third speaker I want to introduce Anand Gupta, he's the political correspondent at scroll.in.

00:24:44: He covers elections protests and everyday contestations over democratic rights in India with a keen interest.

00:24:51: Here is previously reported for The Washington Post And finished as a finalist For the twenty-twenty four Pulitzer Prize In international reporting.

00:24:59: Thank you for being here Anand.

00:25:04: You have the floor.

00:25:05: I can't say that there's a mirror image of what you've described in Albania and the other, in Serbia.

00:25:21: I wouldn't say we are seeing a mirrored image of that in India but they're very clear and distinct similarities to what two previous speakers have described.

00:25:30: One is people with all sorts of views or ideologies who were out on streets And this is not entirely new to India.

00:25:40: VS Nepal had decades ago described India as a land of a million mutinies, so in that sense they're still happening.

00:25:47: but the uniqueness of this present moment is that the Kokrojanta Party has somehow managed to integrate some of these mutinys and unify some of those people who come and agree on common talking points.

00:26:01: The other similarity I wanted point out was international media is covering these protests in India also with a lot of interest and with the lot of proactiveness.

00:26:11: I point this out because i myself worked on international media for about three years, And I found it frustrating that we did not have bandwidth For all.

00:26:19: That was going On In india you know Because We were often picking and choosing what we thought Was worth Covering.

00:26:24: But at This present Moment The International Media Is Very Proactive With Covering What's Going on So?

00:26:33: it's unique from what is happening in Albania and Serbia.

00:26:36: In India, we are witnessing not necessarily just an anti-corruption protest because corruption has been a reality part of the Indian experience right form this time.

00:26:47: And there enough academic research now to show that Indians don't really care much about corruption when it comes their voting behavior.

00:26:54: What you're witnessing here?

00:26:56: I think primarily about reserving assemblances of independence in our democratic institutions the functioning of our democratic institutions.

00:27:04: What we have is a ruling party that is increasingly acquiring power over every institution in India, it has established an near total hold on governments all over the country ,it has unprecedented power uh in India's recent history.

00:27:21: and what citizens seem to be frustrated with is that the ruling party seems to be very good at winning elections but little else beyond.

00:27:32: by virtue of winning all these elections.

00:27:34: All other institutions which we were told are supposed to function independently whether it be the judiciary, whether it'd be media or election commission they have chosen to adopt a very publicly subservient attitude towards government Which young Indians aren't happy with?

00:27:52: They want to see institutions show some gumption and spine and stand up to the Government Disagreeing with the Government.

00:28:02: And so things have become so absurd in India that this all started off with a meme, right?

00:28:07: It started of as a joke where a group of people tried to parody the name of The Ruling Party which is the Bhartiya Janta party.

00:28:16: The Indian People's Party.

00:28:18: they try to parody it by using a slur That was used against young people By a judge.

00:28:24: They took that As-as A Name that they would take pride In Which Is Cockroach and they decided To call themselves.

00:28:31: And they started off as a joke, but fundamentally it was trying to tap into this growing frustration with the lack of spine.

00:28:38: The lack of independence that institutions are supposed to show in any functioning democracy.

00:28:43: and Of course the second layer To This is A desire for a decent quality of life which the government delivers.

00:28:49: better schools Better roads better hospitals Which has not been happening For a while.

00:28:54: and increasingly Indians Are frustrated With the fact That these governments keep coming back to power In states and at the national level without delivering on these basic goods.

00:29:03: So that's what I think is driving the protests in India, In terms of strategy.

00:29:08: like Dressa and Luka pointed out there has been an attempt to dodge issues of identity which would divide solidarity for this protest And There have been efforts to build a broad based coalition.

00:29:20: so working class protests The protests left in india have joined in The protests of Dalits who are historically untouchable.

00:29:28: people going by caste system have also pitched in Muslims who are by all indicators of social economic development, the most marginalized people.

00:29:38: In India I've also pitched it in big numbers.

00:29:41: so its become this integrated protest of multiple groups.

00:29:44: at that moment and because the Kokoro Janta Party chooses to not address questions of identity It chooses to skirt those questions And try build broad based coalitions.

00:29:55: Its working for now i don't know how long it holds.

00:29:58: Like I started off by saying India is a land of a million mutilies.

00:30:01: You can't dodge the question forever and still keep people on board.

00:30:05: at that moment, what's keeping?

00:30:06: People stuck to this hook to.

00:30:08: This Is The fact That They Are Incredibly Frustrated With The Government That's Been In Power For Twelve Years.

00:30:13: Right But It's Hard To Predict How Long That Will Hold.

00:30:16: but The government Did Extend An Olive Branch To These Protesters.

00:30:21: When i think One Of The I Think it Was Andrea If I'm Not Wrong Pointed Out That Sixteen Students Died By Suicide after an examination paper leaked.

00:30:29: That's what gave these protests and initial Philip, and mobilized a lot of people in support of the protesters.

00:30:35: And The government did respond at that time by extending an olive branch.

00:30:39: But since then the governments been a little bit confused.

00:30:42: It does want to respond To them because it doesn't want to come across as apathetic So he wants to respond sympathetically.

00:30:50: He realizes These protest seem to have a lot Of appeal amongst A lot People but At the same Time For its own core supporters, the government doesn't want to see come across as capitulating into the protests completely.

00:31:02: So the government is confused in how it should respond to these guys.

00:31:06: As a result of this we are seeing The Government and its supporters discredit These Guys on A Regular Basis Threaten These Guys.

00:31:12: In fact one Of the Kokrujanta Party Organizers was Detained for twenty Four Hours Almost Recently In Indian State of Assam.

00:31:19: so We Are Seeing Use Of Force We Are Seeing Use Of Propaganda Against Them.

00:31:23: but I wouldn't say that the government has entirely figured out what it wants to do with this campaign.

00:31:29: At the same time, i want to point out that the campaign itself hasn't figured out What It Wants To Do right?

00:31:34: Its jumping from cause-to-cause at the moment.

00:31:37: its started off as a youth issue A general frustration With The State Of Institutions.

00:31:42: Then It Became About Examination Paper Leaks.

00:31:45: then it became about just quality of primary schooling.

00:31:48: in India.

00:31:51: Indigenous people go through in terms of coming into the schooling system.

00:31:55: Now it's become about the independence of the Election Commission Of India and most recently today, there has been a lot of talk about women safety In India cities.

00:32:04: so There is a bunch of issues that they are juggling.

00:32:07: It's good to see again because it helps them integrate The ongoing struggles the feminist struggle the communist struggle but at the same time makes a lot of people not take them seriously.

00:32:22: So it remains to be seen how many people they are able to hold and where this goes, because like with most things in India everything is decided at the hustings right?

00:32:31: And elections are still quite a distance away.

00:32:33: so I want to end on that note.

00:32:36: uh...that a lot remains to been seen but yes..they have brought a sense of humor into Indian public life-a sense of absurdity to the ridiculousness of our power as working in this country at the moment.

00:32:47: Thank you very much, Anand.

00:32:52: And thank you to all three speakers.

00:32:54: I think it was quite interesting to see how there's obviously differences in the protest but also a lot of things that they have in common.

00:33:03: and as promised i would now like take around ten minutes for some first questions.

00:33:08: so for other people who are watching feel free.

00:33:16: And also, we can do a few questions.

00:33:19: If you want to raise your hand?

00:33:20: We could do them orally.

00:33:20: and I would like to start off with one that's been here for awhile and it is for Grisa.

00:33:29: There are some question about the free press in Albania.

00:33:32: so how was looking their free press still there?

00:33:38: what state kind of?

00:33:40: Well most media in Albanian captured by the ruling regime.

00:33:46: We do have a few independent media, when I say a few.

00:33:50: I literally mean two or three such as Citizens Channel beer in Albania as well.

00:33:59: they do amazing investigative work and there are also couple ones but i'm referring you know to online media here.

00:34:07: so no television physical printed daily newspaper, which is a problem because not all Albanians access this information through I don't know via the internet or through social media.

00:34:26: Especially citizens at a certain age are seniors.

00:34:30: they're more inclined to get their news.

00:34:40: So, that is a big problem.

00:34:44: Most of the media are captured by regime and especially during this protest but not only during these protests.

00:34:50: I mean generally you can see that the media just pushes forward the government's rhetoric on literally every issue there is.

00:35:02: so at the beginning of the protest Eddie Rama tried to portray the protest movement as externally orchestrated, he started speaking about an imaginary hybrid war against Albania that only Edirama knew about.

00:35:21: He started bullying and targeting also individual protesters specifically activists trying to portray them Foreign agents, you know working for Serbian interests Greek interest whatever interested there that you can imagine off.

00:35:40: and yeah the media was Just replicating on this.

00:35:45: And just you know spreading these This propaganda.

00:35:49: of course none of it None of it was true But I just It shows how?

00:35:56: The regime Has control over the main state institutions and not just state institutions, but also media like a state media.

00:36:06: And also private media as well.

00:36:09: so Yeah, no media in Albania is not free.

00:36:13: Unfortunately which shows you know that social media plays a huge role and this is also how people are organizing through Facebook Instagram Tiktok.

00:36:20: I mean if you want to learn something You have to search for the news you have to follow certain investigative journalists Which aren't allowed but those few who are there?

00:36:32: You Have to follow individual activists And then you have To be on Social Media understand what Is happening.

00:36:38: otherwise it's very difficult goal.

00:36:42: Thank you for that answer, and yeah indeed also interesting to talk about the role of social media in alternative forms I think.

00:36:50: um i would like to continue with a question raised by their hands because there's been a few people raising their hands.

00:36:59: Um I know that Siegret had her hand raised for a long time so I'm going to give you uh The chance to unmute yourself.

00:37:09: You can now do If you have a question, Sigrid.

00:37:19: If not we're going to also invite Ivana to ask her questions.

00:37:28: So Ivana Yes I don't know if you hear me?

00:37:32: Thank You so much for this timely discussion.

00:37:34: Ivan Adragicci which head of Europe Future Center from Croatia.

00:37:47: So, we have I think unprecedented moments.

00:37:50: that student list is facing Aleksandar Vucic and his progressive party on the elections.

00:37:58: On twenty-fifth October...I think this something..this a novelty in modern European political history That you know it's not a student movement but from student movements list that is competing the authoritarian guy at the election.

00:38:16: So I want to hear from you, what are you expecting?

00:38:20: And if possible...I don't know anyone else can pick up on that.

00:38:23: we heard two questions and from Gressa and from Luca and from Anant which are corruption in rule of law as a commonality within the student movements and considering the overall frustration concerning also trust in old concepts of politics, meaning traditional political parties.

00:38:47: I would like to hear a comment from Kalip Sol Shalini or whoever wants to pick it up in analytical form.

00:38:53: so where do you see commonalities and new possibilities for democracy as we understood this in our previous ways of thinking?

00:39:02: Thank So yeah, thank you for the question.

00:39:17: The elections... ...the big question coming up and it's in everybody's mind in Serbia right now what do I expect from the elections?

00:39:27: I have really no idea because the waters are so muddy by the regime that you genuinely cannot rely on any Let's say polling and that you have no idea what the reality of voting intentions are.

00:39:44: One thing we know for certain, they're going to try to rig elections.

00:39:49: That is clear as day.

00:39:50: They've already been starting doing it.

00:39:53: So in Bosnia-Hepzegovina one half country is Republika Srpska which is the Serbian entity in Bosnia.

00:40:01: In Bosnia these serbs had an opportunity to have Serbia citizenship.

00:40:07: In order to vote in Serbian elections, parliamentary elections they need ID cards.

00:40:11: To get ID card you have an address where they live.

00:40:15: so what the current regime is doing?

00:40:18: it's going around Serbia and addresses which are fictitious I don't know, the street with number zero which doesn't exist.

00:40:27: they would have addresses of electrical transformers and stuff like that in middle-of-the-street.

00:40:34: so infrastructure.

00:40:35: And making out IDs for these people leaving on these addresses.

00:40:40: So you had situations where In the election registry, voter registry You'd have houses with thousands of people living there.

00:40:51: People registered but to be living in these countries so that people from Bosnia can come into Serbia and vote for the Serbian Progressive Party.

00:40:59: We know they're going to vote because of them giving them ID cards, money or transportation from Bosnian to Serbia.

00:41:10: And there have been indications that around five hundred thousand of these fake ID cards had been issued and five hundred thousands voters who should not vote in Serbian elections are going to vote, they're gonna most definitely go to the Serbian Progressive Party.

00:41:23: Besides this we've got situations uh other electoral rigging like um called clock really the Bulgarian train which is when a person goes into the election booth with an already filled out election paper, like the voting paper they get a new one.

00:41:42: They put that was given to them in the box and hide the empty on the blank one and take it out and give it to the person who then fills up certain progressive party.

00:41:56: In that way, they can be certain to vote for the Serbian Progressive Party.

00:41:59: There have been so many and we've seen these machinations in the past twelve years.

00:42:03: We know them through-and-through.

00:42:05: The question is what happens afterwards?

00:42:07: Though the Serbian people accept these stolen elections Mind you I am half of me believes They're gonna steal the election.

00:42:19: Half of me thinks even with the election manipulation the student list will win neitherway because The support and the amount of, let's say optimism that we are seeing right now is something that's unprecedented in some things can most definitely impact these elections.

00:42:39: Trust me, Slobodan Milosevic tried it same as we all know how he ended up with.

00:42:44: Let us hope Alexander Wurczyk shares his faith.

00:42:50: Yes thank you Luka!

00:42:52: There're a lot other interesting questions but just... For the sake of keeping, keeping the conversation going I think we would continue now and then come back to questions in Q&A.

00:43:03: And maybe also some question from audience directly later.

00:43:06: so i'm gonna give a word over to Andrea.

00:43:11: Thank you Amelie.

00:43:12: indeed our efforts will be was ensuring that all answers are addressed.

00:43:20: Also it's interesting see already have read Breakdown of the agenda so they know already who's coming next to speak.

00:43:29: but let me perhaps bridge a little bit at this moment and be firm before we turn into part two.

00:43:35: Just general reminder that this power to people network is entirely crowdfunding, crowdfunded so it believe its very important to continue providing spaces where new narratives about democracy democratic resilience can emerge So possibly also in more languages as well, so we can extend the format to welcome fellow citizens of Europe and the world.

00:43:55: If you can contribute We will circulate all in a chart the crowdfunding link throughout the session And do not hesitate Of course too right to us at any time?

00:44:04: So we move to part two now But very much in the spirit of Anand's comment.

00:44:09: Right!

00:44:09: We can't dodge your question forever.

00:44:12: You said Anand.

00:44:15: wrap our heads around some of the themes that we have already seen raised by the speakers, but also in Q&A.

00:44:21: And we do so by broadening out horizons.

00:44:25: We have Shalini with us.

00:44:27: The name was already mentioned But before I give her the floor let me introduce her.

00:44:31: So Professor Shaliny Renderia is a social anthropologist.

00:44:35: She's rector emerita at the Central European University in Vienna.

00:44:39: she holds the excellent chair on the university of Bremen Germany And her current research project is on the politics of hope pro-democracy youth movements in South Asia.

00:44:51: So we found it very relevant, Of course she has a podcast called Democracy In Question which is currently in its twelve season.

00:44:58: so Shalini perhaps before let's reflect some things that were said here Before announcing his resignation as one of his last access president of Serbia which each pardoned forty nine protesters twelve people from Novi Sad protests and eleven on the pro-government side, you could say.

00:45:18: So the tone of The Novi sad protesters is very paternalistic.

00:45:23: he talks about quote an act of mercy because their age not because they're not guilty or did NOT do something.

00:45:32: but this also strategic ahead of the elections, and it's similar to other contexts in Europe we've heard.

00:45:38: In India education minister Dharmendra Pradhan resigned with celebrations by the cockroach Yanatha Party but the broader structure remains which is resigned only to run again.

00:45:52: Is It Fair To Say That Political Leaders Resort To Performative Or Symbolic Acts?

00:46:00: Having covered many these cases What are your reflections really on what we have heard now from the reports on the ground?

00:46:07: Are there all, all their requests met and if not why.

00:46:14: So thank you very much.

00:46:15: that's a large set of questions.

00:46:18: let me make two or three points And then I have a couple of questions to Anand which will link To some of what we've heard From Albania and Serbia.

00:46:28: so i think one important commonality that I heard was the mainstream media in all three countries.

00:46:37: The mainstream media has not been reporting on any of these issues because the main stream media is has caved-in, In India we've been using the expression to go demedia the lapdog media for them.

00:46:51: they no longer watch dogs off the government partly because, you know the revenue from advertising etc is declined.

00:46:58: They are entirely dependent on government funding.

00:47:03: but that we leave aside.

00:47:05: what really carried the day here was I think The shift from Social media and the screens to presence in the streets But in the Streets of Delhi.

00:47:19: So, you know because we've had so many protests in so many parts of the country against land grab against corruption.

00:47:28: Against infrastructure projects which have taken over farmingland against mining companies against major river projects Which have displaced and dispossessed people to a lot of issues are very similar To The ones Greza was describing either laws which have been bent or laws that are passed in order to enable this kind of large scale dispossession.

00:47:56: and yet all these movements, even the earlier ones.

00:48:00: The farmers movement we would call a success during Covid.

00:48:05: it took them over an year sitting on streets blocking their entrance into Delhi Whereas the student protest by uh, The Cockroach Janta Party was a very short protest.

00:48:21: So I think one interesting thing here is to try and see.

00:48:25: first of all i think the important.

00:48:28: You cannot have a protest which is purely online.

00:48:31: I mean, the online mobilization was crucial but what we're seeing in the Serbian case, Dukovic had been following very carefully since long time and two large long podcast episodes on that as well last year That you've been cycling throughout the country going from village to village town-to-town mobilizing onto ground Here in India, the mobilization was such that people convened on Delhi.

00:49:01: There were isolated protests around the country but some of them are large cities and not really massive ones.

00:49:09: so... Of course a size-of-the-country is slightly larger than Serbia or Albania.

00:49:14: So I think one thing we need to remember What kept the movement in the attention economy was The tweets, the reels, the humor.

00:49:29: The irony that ridicule which they heaped on the government But the fact that there were also on-the ground In the capital.

00:49:41: and so difference here which seems to me, I mean so.

00:49:46: i think the independent media certainly plays a role similar to the other two cases you've described.

00:49:51: But one major difference with Serbia is your universities have been one of the major sites of the protest.

00:49:58: it's not just students in Belgrade but all your universities which were closed for almost a whole year campuses in which assemblies were held, in which decision making was done.

00:50:11: So this is very different from the way The Cockroach Movement evolved.

00:50:16: so Anand's question here Is This Doesn't Spill In To The Rest Of The Country In The Way I Would Have Expected?

00:50:24: The Campuses Are Quiet On The Whole.

00:50:27: They Do Not Become The Site of Protests And the question to you would have been what you described as a very interesting shift in the agenda.

00:50:36: So from a single issue kind of leaked exam papers, You get a shift to the quality of primary schools.

00:50:43: they want to visit them and then it gets to the elections committee on women's safety.

00:50:50: How are these decisions being taken?

00:50:52: Because the Cogrujanta party announced that he doesn't wanna become political parties I think which we need to think about.

00:51:02: how do you institutionalize any of these changes?

00:51:06: How do you keep momentum going and how do your monitor?

00:51:10: so what we saw in Sri Lanka was Rallying behind the opposition once elections were announced.

00:51:15: What we saw a Nepal was The Gen Z movement putting up its own candidates in various parties getting parties to integrate them.

00:51:24: What we are seeing in Serbia is a separate student list which you have made up of professionals, academics people whom you trust but people who have never been in politics before and so there are different strategies as to how to turn this movement into a political force.

00:51:45: the question In The Indian Case for me Is A Movement Which Is Going From Issue To Issue a movement which has no organization, no clear leadership.

00:51:58: Very few resources in a very large country how and elections are far away you're right but it'll have to keep up the momentum and mobilize somehow if it really is to become a major public force.

00:52:13: so I think this would be an interesting point.

00:52:18: uh to talk about.

00:52:23: How does it link with a lot of the other movements which are going on in the country at the same time, if it really is to make a dent to electoral politics?

00:52:39: Thank you.

00:52:39: Let me just then give the floor to Anand for a couple minutes as we also thank Gresha for having taken the time before we jump over two other interventions that we have.

00:52:53: Thank you.

00:52:53: I'll try and keep my response to that short, too.

00:52:57: To the first part of your question professor If you remember India saw massive university protests ten years ago.

00:53:05: That's right.

00:53:06: between then-and now.

00:53:07: in fact at the start of this year i wrote a series Of stories about one such protest movement we saw ten Years ago.

00:53:13: which was it?

00:53:14: The premier Jawaharlal Nehru University In the heart of Delhi.

00:53:19: It was just a series of stories looking back at where the prominent student activists that emerged from their movement went.

00:53:25: In hindsight, I would now like to write this story about whether University Movement went because clearly The Youth Question has exited the university and come out.

00:53:34: its it's coming through these private coaching centers is coming into these unemployed spaces.

00:53:39: very young people no longer feel like going to college No longer dream off alive in academia or in long-term permanent employment, everybody is becoming more and more comfortable with this idea of hustling gig economy.

00:53:53: So that's where the youth movement has ended up.

00:53:56: it has exited the university as our authoritarian government has systematically also dismantled the University especially The Public University.

00:54:04: so That would be my response to the first part of your question To the second part of Your Question.

00:54:10: Professor.

00:54:10: like Luca was saying there are very big concerns and very relevant timely concerns about the functioning of the election commission in India.

00:54:21: And therefore, the integrity of the electoral process.

00:54:24: The Kokru Janta party is trying to play on that widespread suspicion that many Indians now have off of the integrity or for electoral process.

00:54:34: so the Kokru janta parties often asked For example when will you contest elections?

00:54:38: An offer their responses what's the point of contesting elections when elections are rigged, right?

00:54:44: So they have positioned themselves as a pressure group with the very keen interest in politics but no clear plan for entering electoral politics.

00:54:52: And I know from my journalistic work that they're actively trying to engage political parties across the spectrum but all in opposition space and they had back channel communication going on of them.

00:55:05: .I suspect some ideas you pointed out professor will also be seen.

00:55:09: they will come up in due course, they would suggest candidates.

00:55:13: In due course They'll offer conditional support to political parties in certain elections.

00:55:18: None of this has been mapped out yet because at the moment The demand that they've made is That all elections we put on hold in India Elections itself be paused which Is a very polarizing demand There's even among anti-government protesters.

00:55:30: there is A view that doing so Would be disastrous Because it could give government a free run To take power everywhere.

00:55:37: So this is a divisive issue, but they've thrown the gauntlet in.

00:55:41: and which kind of answers.

00:55:43: The question that you'd ask professor there where are these demands coming from?

00:55:46: I suspect that many of these demands, many of the causes that they associate with our coming form a reactionary social media impulse whatever's trending on any given day, the cockroach Janta party quickly takes a position on it right And I wouldn't fault them.

00:56:07: channeling and directing the youth movement, then the youth protests in India right now.

00:56:11: But I do worry that you know The Kokra Janta Party has kind of lost track of what it's doing because its jumping from cause to cause.

00:56:18: one hopes.

00:56:19: at some point they will pull back take stock off where things are going.

00:56:23: but this is were we're at moment.

00:56:24: Thank You So thank you very much Anand And We actually also have a comment i believe from Kushi.

00:56:36: Kushi Rathore is a feminist international relations scholar here at the European University Institute where I'm also in the moment, in Florence and she's also Max Weber Fellow.

00:56:47: Kushi would you like to add a comment on what Anand was just saying?

00:56:52: Thank You Andrea!

00:56:53: Yes i think Anand you've more or less summed up many of us observed also in Delhi right and youth movement like I as someone who was part of Javala Nair University which kind of became the site where the lesson had to be taught.

00:57:13: And then, the gradual dismantling of higher education institutes right?

00:57:17: The one thing i'm thinking is yes of course you know there's a generational shift which we are very well aware off.

00:57:23: um There's also a shift of aspiration Right from the sight or whether resistance is coming.

00:57:30: uh it was education.

00:57:32: till that time in my understanding were we were always told as a developing country that regardless of where you come from, if you have the promise of education.

00:57:44: You can achieve something and That was the common sense Of almost every working-class Indian household.

00:57:52: that okay even If you are not born in money or legacy?

00:57:55: You study well you go to a good university you will have some future.

00:57:59: And The economic economical reality of that has really been altered now Which probably explains what you're saying.

00:58:07: how.

00:58:07: now this is coming from coaching centers, which have pre-existed.

00:58:11: they existed earlier as well But we never saw this kind of political mobilizing.

00:58:16: They were rather very apolitical hubs Of young people You know somewhere where just the unemployed sector would be sucked in.

00:58:24: but another thing I want to ask you is because and your right that The CJP has in a way taken the master's tools like the way the BJP Like the way our government is also like taking issue-to-issue.

00:58:40: They are also taking issue to issue.

00:58:41: But we've seen something like that in the past when the Amadhani party came into power in New Delhi.

00:58:47: So, what extent do we see a difference?

00:58:51: In the current resistance?

00:58:52: because they have seemed.

00:58:53: you have seen Something like that when the anti corruption movement happened.

00:58:57: just the generational face was very, very different.

00:59:00: So from what extent do you understand the similarity and the difference between the two?

00:59:05: And the future tragic trees possibly?

00:59:09: thank you yeah like I think Khushi that this strategy of moving from issue to issue could also reap dividends for all we know because The CJP at the moment is playing This role of an integrator.

00:59:28: it is stitching together a lot of struggles That were so far going on in isolation the feminist question, the labor question.

00:59:35: The caste question.

00:59:37: through its own very interesting if only amorphous way, the CJP is able to string together all these movements and bring them on one page for now.

00:59:48: in that sense I think For all of this individual movement's willingness set aside petty quibbles and agree a large common minimum program is higher now than it was, I think fifteen years ago because the challenge of authoritarianism as much stronger then ever before.

01:00:09: That's one big shift that i have personally seen from last anti-corruption movement which also birthed a new political party at time did not see this kind urgency to set aside theoretical disagreements or personal angst ideological quibbles and come on same page about common minimum demand, right?

01:00:33: That I see much more of now.

01:00:35: So in that sense and also it's important to caveat by saying the question of ideology itself has reduced importance because everything is so absurd.

01:00:46: we have a ruling party that professes to be pro-market in name but as protectionist can be It borrows from socialism populism, if it's its own variety of populism.

01:01:00: So when for the powers that be like you pointed out no rule supply then why should rules apply to resistance?

01:01:07: Right and Why should all these terms in condition supply to resistance?

01:01:11: I think That's what we are seeing a little bit off at the moment so i could Be wrong And they could actually reap dividends from this strategy.

01:01:18: But I do worry also that It would come At The cost Of staying focused on one issue.

01:01:26: Thank You Anand.

01:01:27: now turn two Calypso, Professor Calypsum Nicolaides precisely on this question that you have just raised actually.

01:01:36: Professor Calipso Nicolaidis is chairing global affairs at the Florian School of Transnational Governance where she's also the director of the transnational democracy program.

01:01:44: She defines herself as an academic activist so you can find some connections with the conversation we're having today And she engages in research promoting democratic innovations, including a permanent itinerant citizen assembly for the European Union.

01:01:59: She explores also the connection between democracy and geopolitics which is relevant to this conversation as well.

01:02:09: Calypso we've heard many contributions conversations about how do we move from individual to collective mobilization?

01:02:17: From national to regional when Do you reckon, and how can participatory processes become a transformative way of enforcing accountability and transparency mechanisms?

01:02:30: When do they scale?

01:02:32: when do they become transformative.

01:02:38: And of course I would also ask you to react too.

01:02:42: the other questions in comments raised.

01:02:44: well indeed Andrea on everyone it's impossible not to react because you've said so many provocative points.

01:02:51: and indeed in the questions we may ask, they're not innocent you know.

01:02:56: When we asked what is... What takes you from what movements want?

01:03:01: To what do they get as activist academics those of us who are We wanna?

01:03:09: Well, how do you get what you want?

01:03:12: We're not neutral here.

01:03:13: Not social scientists.

01:03:15: and so yes Andrea I mean as i was listening to our wonderful speakers You know a lot of commonalities the triggers all these moments As we heard They never start with some sort of abstract demand for democratic renewal, but there's something that happens at people can no longer accept.

01:03:38: Lucas said enough is enough right?

01:03:40: So you have a tragedy in Novi Sad.

01:03:42: You Have abuse Of power Flamingo are going to die and the Trumps The trumps Are everywhere.

01:03:49: we notice.

01:03:50: so the first Democratic moment here Is To refuse an official account or Something you say.

01:03:55: no too Right.

01:03:56: But then the First question related.

01:03:58: Your Question Or issue I want to ask about is how these triggers then relate to the upstream.

01:04:07: How was there, if there's a rupture of the dam?

01:04:10: There was a river there!

01:04:12: The events make something visible and i think that's part of the answer.

01:04:16: we hardly touched on the fact that the Flamingo movement in Albania was also informed by your kind of collective memory that made poor half of the country.

01:04:29: and they learned, They didn't understand that capitalism was there to get them.

01:04:34: That they wouldn't get rich easily.

01:04:36: And so now when their being told oh you know if the Trumps come in then they're gonna build these tourist resort You all are going to get rich.

01:04:43: no we not buying this.

01:04:45: instead We want the flamingos to survive.

01:04:48: So it becomes very concrete In India.

01:04:52: you spoke about Serbia.

01:04:57: Of course, we have histories there but I think all of these history are in common that it's not.

01:05:03: yes There is the underlying huge frustration of corruption That relates to the immense disparities of wealth.

01:05:15: But they see the diagnosis.

01:05:17: They sort of see visible to capture what we would call capture, right?

01:05:22: And kind of social science language but basically yes authoritarian government or private money launders grace and talked about this organized crime these groups that capture your wealth and you're dignity.

01:05:37: so there is a story their not only concentration off power capturing your future, closing of the future.

01:05:47: I think and Kushi was talking, Kushi is next to me.

01:05:49: that's why i'm like doing this.

01:05:52: so for those of you who can't see... And young people especially are told no future it's back to the punk age in all of this right?

01:06:03: So Anna we've kept on referring to jumping from cause-to-cause.

01:06:08: if the story that is being told not general, like everything we want to throw away.

01:06:16: But there is a story that hops back into the past.

01:06:23: but these issues are connected in very specific ways and have to do with this arrogance of power are the kind of ingredients for upscaling that Andrea was asking about.

01:06:41: So, they're downstream.

01:06:42: so we all want to ask you know well how are you gonna get what you want?

01:06:47: And in all these three stories We don't.

01:06:50: yet there's a huge amount of suspense.

01:06:52: A B There is no magic wand You know and were on Tenderhooks.

01:06:59: it might take long time To unfold.

01:07:02: And there is a distinction in the ingredients between your short-term accountability, say protected areas hopefully will be saved in Albania.

01:07:12: But also you get the resignations in Serbia and in India.

01:07:17: OK that's short term It helps, but you also need another ingredient which we all heard about a kind of social solidarity that is created.

01:07:26: You know Albania.

01:07:27: in front of the arrests All these new alliances that you're talking about and then coalescing mutiny you seem to be totally echoing Albania's LGBT with conservatives or Lucas' alliance.

01:07:41: That were seeing.

01:07:42: But you also needed other ingredients.

01:07:45: I've heard from which is a kind of narrative change, that these movements are changing the language for society.

01:07:52: The way societies understand what the problem is.

01:07:56: and that connects Ivana to your question about the rule of law because those of us who had the unfortunate honor of writing books about the role of law I wrote one called The Citizen's Guide To The Role Of Law.

01:08:09: Why We Must Fight For The Most Precious Human Invention is because you say rule of law, everybody falls asleep.

01:08:18: What are she talking about?

01:08:20: But actually that's what all these protests are about against arbitrary power like one day to the next.

01:08:27: You don't know what falls on your head and be arrested.

01:08:29: These things are happening.

01:08:30: You've been ejected from your land.

01:08:32: arbitrariness of power And That's where The Rule Of Law Is.

01:08:35: So with All These Movements To Me Ivana Are Inventing Our Popular Movement Understandable Languages.

01:08:45: But then the next question, which echoes very much what Shalini was brilliantly saying is well how do you translate all of this in the longer term?

01:08:55: forcing institutions to share their authority over you or with societies?

01:09:01: And here I think we heard two types of questions.

01:09:06: One is the adjudication between the temptation.

01:09:13: Yes, we create these movements in the social spheres.

01:09:16: But were not kind of creating explicit pathways to politics?

01:09:21: and maybe we have assemblies.

01:09:23: you know all sorts of them.

01:09:25: in Serbia has it's been amazing for a while doing that?

01:09:29: but then between that integration into the electoral system And there, you know I hope that they can be a conversation between Anna and Luca otherwise.

01:09:42: Between our Indian activists and what is happening in Serbia where after lot of agony and Luca you alluded to that but it'd interesting to hear more the student movement and the movements in general decided to have these lists this student list right?

01:09:56: And Jalini was talking about your bicycle campaign.

01:10:02: so here not quite.

01:10:03: why not political party per se, why not go all the way?

01:10:07: It's a list.

01:10:08: Maybe because that sounds better?

01:10:10: I don't know...I'm not sure.

01:10:12: actually Why not the Nepal strategy of co-opting different parties, putting your candidates everywhere?

01:10:20: What are the strategies of integration in the political logic.

01:10:24: And of course Luca you were talking about rigging elections but what is the best way to push back against that in all of your settings?

01:10:33: and my big struggle or what I would advocate for it's we should all advocate an implement a fourth branch government something official, but that is networks of citizen assemblies who have a direct say one way or another in what public authorities decide.

01:10:52: We could talk about that But I want to you know.

01:10:54: finish on a couple of points.

01:10:57: One is that we can ask You know, immediately what is the immediate?

01:11:06: has your immediate wrong being addressed?

01:11:08: Is that productive or counterproductive?

01:11:10: these olive branch you're talking about because you can lose them momentum.

01:11:14: So in a kind of perhaps perverse way we may hope That's her immediate.

01:11:19: ask it not address right away But that's a provocation.

01:11:26: I also want to ask then And if there's been resignation, like okay you won.

01:11:32: Why are still in the street?

01:11:36: Are other people who mobilize...are you gaining a lasting power also influencing the wider public in their capacity to act.

01:11:47: The next time around, what are these pathways?

01:11:51: And I think maybe we want to recognize that this pathway can reinforce one another but also be intentioned as i just said you know because you wanna access politics narrow the movement's demands And so I think there's a dilemma here that you're facing because the more democratic young people are invited to express their view in a performative way, like theater.

01:12:24: the less institutions actually do it for real.

01:12:27: So there's this kind of gap, but I have a final question also that really concerns the rest of us who are not in your countries which basically is how can we provide more effective support to these difficult democratic struggles from abroad without you becoming tainted by our report or by the accusation?

01:12:55: How do we do that?

01:12:56: And I have many sub-questions under that one, but i'll leave it at that because you know... ...I've thrown in a lot of things.

01:13:03: But hopefully we can also come back to them.

01:13:06: Wonderful!

01:13:07: So questions then lead to more questions and I wonder if anybody from the speakers would like to reflect on this before we move into our final contribution for Madeleine.

01:13:19: I'm looking particularly to Anant and Luca But it can also be later.

01:13:25: Luca, yes?

01:13:26: I just wanted to say that i can try and answer some of the questions being posed but if you think there is better to do afterwards.

01:13:34: We have time man.

01:13:35: we want to hear from you so please go ahead.

01:13:38: Okay.

01:13:38: So thank for all your questions.

01:13:41: listening too You know how much context I left out and simply because there's so much things that have been happening, especially like the bicycle tours.

01:13:52: It is not only bicycles.

01:13:52: we walked five hundred kilometers altogether throughout from the northern point of Serbia to the southern point.

01:14:00: it has been incredible but you know these things happened a year ago And then so many things happen in between.

01:14:07: You just cannot remember all them.

01:14:10: Regarding questions around student list Why was this?

01:14:16: Simply, parties have bad optics and bad sound to the Serbian public.

01:14:26: From nineteen ninety one when we had first multi-party elections today, Serbian people have been without mistake disappointed by every party which has represented them in some way, shape or form.

01:14:39: So the alternative that we are offering them... The alternative which has sprouted from these grassroots protests Which is not only students and academics You know people who were as they wanted to As the Serbian Progressive Party wanted to paint this protest as the bourgeoisie And the elites protesting against will of the People.

01:15:00: It has not been that.

01:15:01: it's been people from all over the country with these local assemblies being formed in each city.

01:15:08: They're called Zborz, and they are basically just like groups of People who live on the same street In the same couple buildings gathering again talking about what they can do to change their immediate surroundings And this sort of direct democracy grassroots movement which started blocks in the cities, grew out and they started.

01:15:34: organizing protests on their own, protest which are not been organized by the students themselves.

01:15:40: So we did blockade our universities.

01:15:42: We did organize massive protests but every single week there were smaller protests in all cities in Serbia at one point organized by these local assemblies and these local communities.

01:15:53: People from those local assemblies Are now one of the crucial members And the crucial organs let's say off this student movement election cycle and this whole campaign.

01:16:08: We have people who are willing to do door-to-door activities, you know?

01:16:11: People who were surveying...people tables with where people can approach and talk, stuff like that.

01:16:23: These are normal people who have a nine to five job but then go do these things Our parents or neighbors... This has not been trying to achieve something like this with a hierarchical structure of the party, I think would not have been as successful.

01:16:39: As disorganized decentralized way of having you know this list which is separate thing program in which they Which we connected and created them And then all these white network activists which now represent us when it comes to defending the electoral results and hoping that, you know this massive election rigging does not occur.

01:17:10: First cure for that is definitely high turnout rates higher turnouts more difficult election fraud And then obviously a simple understanding that the Serbian people are going to defend, so it is one thing when Serbs and not only Serbs but anyone wants to protest with the demands they have.

01:17:33: Moral demands and things that they deem should be done in a certain way in our country And its completely different approach on a complete different mindset.

01:17:43: When you go and defend your vote... ...when you know most of the countries voted against you And you try to cling on power.

01:17:55: That is completely two different things.

01:17:56: and that was the fifth of October, two thousand.

01:18:24: this ordeal was resolved.

01:18:27: And I think that, at the moment of resolution our lessons from history and knowledge... That is possible!

01:18:34: This has happened before.

01:18:36: it's something which will give us a higher chance, a higher determination to see these things through.

01:18:42: The question is how far are they willing to go?

01:18:45: Will blood be spilled on streets in Serbia On the twenty-sixth day of October or in November this year.

01:18:53: And that question is, we are afraid of what might happen but you can never say no and the thing to do about it obviously raise awareness.

01:19:10: secondly hold your elected officials accountable if as European because The autocratic regime, the Serbian Progressive Party holds some sort of support from European Union and United States.

01:19:26: And Russia and China.

01:19:28: So if all these four entities support them it means that It gives a good signal to us.

01:19:34: we have reason for fight and say no today.

01:19:39: But holding your officials accountable saying how can you shake hands with an autocrat is most damage than you could do.

01:19:51: Thank you.

01:19:51: So Anand, I can see would like to come in and we'd love to hear from you before We do that.

01:19:58: i just want to check if Madeleine Would Like To Come In now?

01:20:02: I know she's actually on the move so we have to take the logistics also into account.

01:20:07: And thank You for Still Making it to this meeting.

01:20:10: let me Also Introduce you.

01:20:16: Madeleine DeCogbouning is Professor of Communication, Law and Digital Policy, Economy & Society at the European University Institute and Utrecht University.

01:20:27: She works on technology media and democracy.

01:20:30: she's helped shaped European policy on information integrity and European storytelling And it currently also a key member of Democracy contributing to the initiative's work on democratic renewal in Europe.

01:20:44: She also chairs the advisory council of the European Digital Media Observatory, so lots of overlapping competences.

01:20:52: that would really be fruitful for this conversation we hope.

01:20:55: and My question, I have a question for you as well of course couldn't go without and it actually veers a little bit more towards the structural institutional.

01:21:05: We're starting really to hear about possible solutions emerging some more traditional than others.

01:21:11: in pertaining to traditional structures like holding political representative accountables other from this word sort bottom up organization possibly also leading new forms participation.

01:21:24: But perhaps my question to you is because we talked a lot about what Grace mentioned and she's not here anymore, but she mentioned how the law was used to justify corruption.

01:21:36: Well media also play crucial role in both ways right?

01:21:41: To counter communication narratives, or on the other hand to corroborate issues.

01:21:47: Luca talked us about media freedom and fact-checking too.

01:21:51: So perhaps a little bit of better question On your work?

01:21:53: The work you're doing also with the Moxie twenty seven on anticipatory governance.

01:21:57: How do we work ahead of time To ensure that the democratic quality Of anti corruption And affordability struggles remains top of the agenda?

01:22:06: We have really had tools to tackle these issues structurally Give us your sense, but also of course reflect on anything you want to pick up from the many threads we have opened here.

01:22:19: Thank You André.

01:22:19: it's really fantastic as a fabulous to be here.

01:22:24: wonderful conversation very timely yeah.

01:22:28: so let's start with what were seeing right?

01:22:32: So What We Really See Is That There Are A Lot Of Commonalities and the commonalities are not just these three cases that are super clear, but this is something we have also seen through history.

01:22:45: So a similar pattern.

01:22:47: first of all you see an unconcrete injury.

01:22:51: enough it's enough.

01:22:52: sometimes its the straws and broke to camels back But some times just what happens at moment.

01:23:00: because such an outrage.

01:23:03: And then that creates a narrative, and part of my work has been also working for Netflix as Vice President of Global Affairs.

01:23:12: There I learned a lot about narratives right?

01:23:14: So the fact it gets so bad you get whole movement around them.

01:23:20: That is exactly when you see change happening which actually exciting an important.

01:23:28: So that symbolism and narrative is extremely helpful, but it's a start.

01:23:35: It is organized without political parties online or on the streets.

01:23:40: of course you need some form incorporation, because otherwise if it's just a movement that isn't going anywhere you really want to make sure to find ways to do.

01:23:53: And I think media is very important for them and should play the watchdog role in other way around.

01:24:01: so this one bridge from me go through what we're doing at democracy twenty seven.

01:24:07: after then i would love talk about.

01:24:09: but we can ask institutions right now keep these movements Right?

01:24:14: Because we also see through history that kleptocracy is not appreciated at all.

01:24:20: When the leaders are as Icarus, because right now i'm um... Also in Athens uh.. The birthplace of democracy.

01:24:31: so i am very inspired by old kinds of beautiful stories.

01:24:35: In Athens We have Now the Democracy Forum!

01:24:38: The Athens Democracy Forum where we also talk about how we can renew democracy.

01:24:44: So, I would say the following.

01:24:47: As democracy twenty-seven we are very incentivised to renew democracy.

01:24:53: We see strong democratic backsliding... ...we focus on Europe by the way so not in India although of course all those countries also learn a lot.

01:25:03: democracy is a verb, it's not what used to be.

01:25:06: It cannot be...it should be renewed and movements like these can create the sparkle that is needed.

01:25:14: What also super clear for me is youth because youth so important in all of this movement finds this importance right?

01:25:23: And thats hopeful.

01:25:25: The problem however are institutions able listen?

01:25:29: are they able to receive?

01:25:31: And let's dive a little bit into that, because that is also something we as democracy.

01:25:36: We have a mandate by civil society and didn't want a mandate from governments or the European Commission but wanted us to stay completely independent so it can be advised relatively critically towards those institutions in order for them up their game.

01:25:55: that democracy is key for young people, not just their future but actually now.

01:26:06: So we all need to start listening!

01:26:08: much better.

01:26:09: So what can we then ask of institutions?

01:26:12: Of course I can't preach to our report, but gonna bring out in March twenty-seven the Draghi Report on Democracy and were also going follow up by a campaign so that people will not shove their reports into a drawer when they're really listening.

01:26:28: it's got advice from all different levels.

01:26:33: What we see is that institutions, especially European institutes can play a role.

01:26:39: If I think for instance on the two European countries Serbia and Albania right there are candidates to be part of The European Union.

01:26:50: That gives leverage And i think Brussels might want realize they could potentially lose the admiration Of young people if don't take the rule of law seriously.

01:27:02: So don't be soft, but just be super clear about that.

01:27:06: Right?

01:27:08: If you see movements put to the fore.

01:27:10: what is going wrong in this system... ...that needs to be taken into account.

01:27:15: I've seen by the Bay happening on some of these reports for instance on Turkey being relatively interested in becoming part of the European Union a couple years ago And then Europe was actually the commission writing extremely critical reports on the rule of law and a lack of independence, or judiciary an media in Turkey.

01:27:39: So I know it is possible but its important that happens right?

01:27:43: That's one so thats to create conditions with these circumstances.

01:27:49: if you have that aspiration use that.

01:27:51: secondly i would say protect civil space Because these protests are happening in very dangerous circumstances.

01:28:00: And what we can all do together, including based on the European Convention of Human Rights I'm a lawyer as you can hear... We can protect those civic spaces and we should work to find all kinds of ways because otherwise these voices aren't heard beaten down and we have seen that behavior as well.

01:28:23: And I would say thirdly, it was already brought up by Shalini is protecting the information ecosystem.

01:28:33: We need media to be able to play their independent watch role As you said Shaliny The struggle of course right now find it difficult to finance themselves, they become more and more dependent on financiers for instance governments.

01:28:53: And that has to do with social media.

01:28:56: who is able to attract most of the advertising income?

01:28:59: so big problem.

01:29:01: There is legislation, a regulation actually in place.

01:29:06: that's supportive also for independent journalism and the European Media Freedom Act which really champions independence of journalists so that they can critically report as well the plurality.

01:29:24: This was initiated by Vera Durova, a European commissioner who is also vice president under the last von der Leyen commission and she happens to be chair of democracy twenty-seven.

01:29:37: So you have a feeling about how seriously we take this information space.

01:29:43: I've been working on this information from the get go of the chair after European high level group and disinformation.

01:29:51: And we drafted a relatively effective system to combat this information, but there's much more to do.

01:29:59: so without further ado i toss back over to you.

01:30:03: guys also have to run too To Go to meeting now But an I need a sip of water.

01:30:11: Thank you, Madeline.

01:30:12: We'll let you have that sip of water and thank you for having taken the time or whatever follow-up question but maybe we can explore it as some other time?

01:30:19: I think one... Maybe it's a question that returned back to The Room as well.

01:30:24: first will get to Anand But It is a collective question.

01:30:27: if want ask How do we envision also the role of these coalitions, right?

01:30:34: Because we talked about bottom-up movements.

01:30:36: But there's also the roll off coalitions or actors and organizations that work in this space And how perhaps across borders they can lend a hand to help the cross border solutions That would really desperately need as Madeleine has pointed out quite structurally.

01:30:59: So I talked with a political anthropologist and this person told me something really very important, she said the following you know these organizations as well of businesses.

01:31:14: they have power And not exercising that power for the good of society and strengthening democracy by working together well is actually also a way to abuse of power.

01:31:27: I think it's very strong, so i agree with you we have to work together.

01:31:33: It should be about us or them.

01:31:35: We must unite to strengthen democracy.

01:31:38: make sure democracy has future proof.

01:31:41: avoid that these protests are the only means to get changed, right?

01:31:46: We need a better system.

01:31:48: so by voting you can already create change.

01:31:53: Thank-you and I think for that we would need a really strong way of mapping who these actors are.

01:31:59: So maybe there's an agenda in this for everybody.

01:32:03: Perhaps i want give it back to Anand to reflect, let's in a way go back to our previous conversation but also connect it with what we're saying now.

01:32:12: So you have first-hand experience of what Madeline was talking about right?

01:32:17: Over to you Anand.

01:32:19: Yeah no I just wanted to respond Professor Nikolai.

01:32:22: this is provocation about the possibilities and dangers of protest movements that restrict themselves very narrow demands such as resignation.

01:32:32: We saw that happen in India, you know the protest was really struggling to take off and it only took of because government ignored for a good thirty days.

01:32:43: And then chose to crack down on using force.

01:32:46: That is what gave the protests its legs.

01:32:49: So I fully agree with you.

01:32:52: there's this almost perverse incentive There To be ignored, tested out Even brutalized by powers for your demand to gain traction, we saw that happen with the current protests in India.

01:33:09: With regard to your second question about what all of you and other countries can do just to add to what Luca pointed out which is pressure your own governments, pressure our own leaders too choose the right side.

01:33:23: in our country's In india We also have All the major political parties have overseas cells And the civil society also has excessive international collaborations.

01:33:36: You know, the communists have their own international collaboration.

01:33:39: historically of course they've had them so I am more than happy to point you who people are that can get in touch with?

01:33:46: Who could help participate through legitimate means and of course choose to support independent media which like we were discussing earlier there's very few outlets that are committed to doing journalism, questions powers and all its forms.

01:34:04: And scroll is one of them but there's many others.

01:34:07: so you can take a look at the independent media outlets.

01:34:11: some do take international donations.

01:34:13: Scroll recently lodged magazine for people outside India especially.

01:34:18: So also things happening.

01:34:20: But conversations like this is very great place to start For us.

01:34:25: it has been wonderful respond to all your questions.

01:34:30: Like I was saying earlier with regard, the media question that was posed just before this by Professor Madeleine...I left international media precisely because there were so much youthful energy in South Asia and the international media didn't seem to have bandwidth for it at that time!

01:34:50: And i wanted work on an independent Indian outlet.

01:34:58: anxieties, those protests.

01:34:59: Those tensions that were building up in my society and it's been wonderful to do that.

01:35:04: It has been a challenge.

01:35:05: of course I took big pay cut among other things but its' been lot fun full possibilities also.

01:35:12: so independent media is the way to go.

01:35:14: Storytelling i think we will never run out off And power storytelling won't ever go away.

01:35:20: So...I take alot solace on this.

01:35:27: Well thank you Anand for inspiring reflection.

01:35:31: our individual agency as well, in consumer choices and where do we decide to find information.

01:35:41: And I wonder if there's any additional comments on this last remark by Anand or indeed Madeleine from the speakers?

01:35:50: Or indeed The Room?

01:35:52: If not then i think would like give it back to Amélie so that gradually start going through some of the questions.

01:36:01: I want to admit that we already had my own set of questions, sub-questions that we wanted to ask but i would say for time being let's see because there is so much richness of contributions in Q&A and we wanna do justice before returning to additional question from our side.

01:36:23: Amelie can you help us go trough these?

01:36:26: Yes, gladly indeed.

01:36:29: I would just start with the top question.

01:36:32: that's here in German and I'll translate it so.

01:36:37: Beata is asking kind of in reference to different movements In the different countries we talked about.

01:36:45: It looks like a worldwide movement for democracy.

01:36:49: There are some similarities between these two.

01:36:54: Which role do you think can other forms of democracy apart from elections?

01:37:00: So she's, for example talking about the form of lottery democracy or I know also.

01:37:05: this is quite interesting.

01:37:08: For the Democratic Odyssey for citizen panels and more deliberative democracy?

01:37:15: what kind of role in these forms of Democracy play in either taking over systems that don't seem to work or indeed also just complimenting them.

01:37:27: I think this could be a question for Calypso maybe, but if Luca and Anand have any ideas about your respective countries?

01:37:43: This is indeed a question that's very close to my heart.

01:37:46: Not just me, you know all of the ecosystem of friends not here only at EUI European University in Florence but also literally hundreds of citizens as well as hundred volunteers participated in our experiment, in our pilot assembly called the Democratic Odyssey Amelie that you're alluding to.

01:38:10: Andrea and Max were here where very much part of this adventure And what we are trying do there is demonstrate how an itinerant assembly moving around Europe involving loads of citizens randomly selected by the rolling of dice, could be a kind of prototype for what would happen in Europe if we were going to create permanent such assembly with constantly rotating membership.

01:38:43: But that will almost like a fourth branch government and help the official institutions, governmental institutions connect better with citizens.

01:38:56: So this is something we really believe in.

01:39:00: and yet, why?

01:39:01: Because when you have randomly selected citizens in an assembly they can really reflect the diversity of society And look like people like us to ordinary citizens.

01:39:17: They also maybe most importantly for our conversation here.

01:39:22: they're not in it for very long, maybe six months or max a year.

01:39:26: Which means that can't be corrupted!

01:39:28: They cannot be bought up when the next day there are.

01:39:32: They could watch dogs and bring sunlight into how our states operate.

01:39:38: so many reasons to defend So-called, you know democracy by lottery in the ancient world whether it's an India or in The Levant or in Greece.

01:39:48: You know this was people understood that being selected by chance Was actually a very very democratic thing.

01:39:56: now today?

01:39:57: I think that all these protests demonstrate something bigger than that.

01:40:02: assemblies and they're part, need to be part of broader what we call with Andrea and colleagues participatory chains.

01:40:12: That there are chains of participation that somehow can lead from protest or maybe creating assemblies to running for elections too calling for referenda?

01:40:23: And then some how democratic movements especially youth democratic movement needs find ways better bringing those together in most effective ways because sometimes they can go into blind alley, blind spot.

01:40:37: They can be self-defeating.

01:40:39: They don't guarantee change.

01:40:40: of course.

01:40:41: that's partly what we've been saying.

01:40:43: so part I think our collective mission all of us here All of you listening the movements is to think together and act together on bringing together these democratic tools, democratic mechanisms inspiration.

01:41:01: Bringing our imagination in this story finding other ways of doing stuff like arts and theater to inspire people music so... And I think the protests are the best inspiration for that because within protest as we've heard there are assemblies.

01:41:20: The question is whether they can lead.

01:41:24: Not everything is the power about not.

01:41:26: Everything is vertical.

01:41:27: a lot of these stories are bad people connecting horizontally through society, but we need to combine this.

01:41:34: reality's The best way We can so we don't end up in a world of authoritarian bros that we all fear and reject.

01:41:47: I just want to add That i would love something like that In India because So much of our progressive campaigns, protest movements have focused for the last two years on the restorative part of their agenda.

01:42:00: The government in power is seen as a destructive force and they talk a lot about going back to how things work but we all know that time doesn't move in that way.

01:42:19: Professor Nikolai, this is pointing out could be a great thing for India.

01:42:23: You know just increasing public participation in any way I think would be fantastic because people democracy and India has really worked for decades.

01:42:32: it hasn't entrenched itself.

01:42:33: It's gone down to the village level To the poorest of Indians .It Is Just That People Now Feel Completely Elbowed Out Of The Process.

01:42:41: Its Become So Mechanical.

01:42:43: so anything that enhances Public Participation i Think Would Be Great For Our Democracy.

01:42:51: I just wanted to add that in Serbia, i have a bit more doubts.

01:42:55: Something like this can even work simply because the authoritarian regime of Vucic in Serbia is not illegally in the sense they dismiss all of the guardrails that exist.

01:43:08: They find ways around it.

01:43:11: So there would definitely... Just to illustrate you're talking about lottery.

01:43:16: Even lottery was once rigged.

01:43:19: So, if they can rig the actual one that elects officials... ...can be rigged as well.

01:43:28: The biggest change in Serbia and countries like Serbia is not regarding its system.

01:43:34: it's about people.

01:43:35: And we have seen from... First you need to remember Serbia does NOT have a functioning parliament since nineteen twenty-eight.

01:43:46: From then up until today, we have variable amounts of parliamentary life in Serbia.

01:43:55: But we had dictatorship under the king and socialist one-party system.

01:44:01: Then we had a flawed multiparty system under Slobodan Milošev.

01:44:06: He's done a flawed democracy under democratic party And now going slowly but surely to an authoritarian regime under Aleksandar Vucic.

01:44:14: So these processes, democratic process do not exist in the minds of Serbians.

01:44:21: And at that moment the democratic maturity of Serbs is now slowly changing and it has happened throughout Eastern Europe from Poland to Romania.

01:44:38: Now we can maybe talk even Hungary.

01:44:41: In a sense There has been a moment of democratic maturity, and I think that the time for Serbian democracy Has come.

01:44:53: And we can talk about...I wonder how this conversation is going to reflect on Serbia's future in next coming years?

01:45:03: So, Andrea if I may have the word just two very quick questions.

01:45:17: Look up for me The Hungarian Experience which i've been following very carefully because I was rector four years of Central European University Which Orban kicked out Of Hungary.

01:45:28: One of interesting things is in the Hungarian story that Orban Is unfortunately a Very good and diligent student of Gramsci Orban, when he was not in power between his two governments.

01:45:42: He was the best organizer at the local level of extremely widespread local grass root top down organized but very transported his agenda in very many ways across the entire country and into the Hungarian diaspora.

01:46:04: So we have seen their right-wing organization quite successful at these very local level organization, and I think I have days doing that in some ways.

01:46:16: In Germany as well quite successfully whereas i think the parties of the centre right center left uh The Greens etc.

01:46:24: And the Left are not very good at That.

01:46:26: now in the Indian case and I wonder what Anand has to say on this we had one movement which was Very successful at extremely Good local organizing and that is our Right-to-Information campaign.

01:46:40: it made sure that there were fiscal audits at the very local level, village per village.

01:46:46: And they taught the villagers how to audit their budgets and accounts.

01:46:51: you know this is where money's coming in.

01:46:53: let see as citizens was the first step towards accountability at a very low or local level and very successfully so.

01:47:05: And the MKSS campaign then finally led to passing of the Right To Information Act, now it's being used as completely diluted but there very strong local level organization on that campaign.

01:47:19: And of course, we have seen on paper a lot of decentralization and devolution of power to village councils in India Village Panchayats.

01:47:29: the question is how do really make that effective?

01:47:33: In some of the kinds of issues that they movements have been taking up.

01:47:38: so I think there would be a possibility, not of lottery.

01:47:42: We have not had that.

01:47:43: we've not had randomly selected assemblies but we already certain institutional bodies at the local level however difficult some of the workings may be.

01:47:56: for example there is reservation for women in all those local-level bodies which you know something opening of a certain kind of participatory space.

01:48:11: So I think the possibilities are there, The question is how to organize around some of those possibilities in a sustained manner which takes the momentum and uses it.

01:48:33: Thank you.

01:48:34: Thank you very much, Shalini.

01:48:36: So I would actually let me perhaps summarize...I think we have answered also going through the chat in a Q&A The question by Josef on commonalities across cases although You mentioned a couple more that weren't necessarily part of this conversation.

01:48:51: and if the speakers Have A second they can Also Perhaps add a comment here And there but those are two rows On the comment on being deprived Of a future versus being inspired By it.

01:49:01: so In these solutions space we're now talking about.

01:49:04: I think in a way, we have addressed it but do share if that's the case?

01:49:16: chat, which was rather extensive.

01:49:18: And I think it would merit a last round of thirty second interventions by the speakers before we close and We need to really hold them do this.

01:49:27: That's my responsibility.

01:49:28: But Joe is wondering if you wanted to come in?

01:49:32: Take the floor directly otherwise i'm also happy To read your question.

01:49:40: Sure Just...I mean The part Of It Is You know In Western Press references to this research, Erica Chenoweth others.

01:49:52: It shows that nonviolent movements are becoming less effective.

01:49:56: I'm certainly still way more effective than the violent ones in these kinds of situations and i just wondered for people who're actually on the ground um in these movements what they make of that or their sort of.

01:50:11: is the non-violent movement playbook outdated?

01:50:14: does it need updating?

01:50:16: And if so What specifically?

01:50:21: Thank you, Joe.

01:50:22: That's that's hopefully good for a thirty second round of quick fire.

01:50:28: Who would like to volunteer?

01:50:29: I don't want to point the finger now Let's see who have on the screen but if there are no volunteers it's.

01:50:38: I can give you one sentence answer.

01:50:41: I was referring to the Right To Information Movement, so i remember a very interesting interview by Aruna Roy who is of that movement and when she asked about non-violent movements.

01:50:56: we are fighting for people's right to life and livelihood.

01:51:01: So the first thing we need to protect our lives, there is no way that you can fight for right-to-life or livelihood through violent

01:51:08: means.".

01:51:09: This was one of those who did a lot of grassroots organizing around a lot of these questions about accountability and the people's right to information.

01:51:19: That was her answer, which I thought is very striking.

01:51:22: Of course in India we have this whole history of the Gandhian discussion.

01:51:26: We've also had the Maoist movement so actually movements on both sides.

01:51:31: Movements that take up arms And movements with strong history of sticking to nonviolent means with Gandhi's old argument that the means can never be used to justify the ends.

01:51:49: Thank you, Shalini.

01:51:50: Kushi?

01:51:52: Yeah I just want to add what Shalani said earlier also right like because we did have the Right To Information Movement and we had this on-ground mobilization.

01:52:02: but i think somewhere it goes back.

01:52:06: The imprint of democratic participation is so much in the Indian society, not the perfected form.

01:52:14: but you do see those streaks coming out at every level when you engage with different collectivities.

01:52:22: They see themselves as citizens even if it's a compromised citizenry that exists right?

01:52:29: And with the CJP also, we are seeing some semblance of that old tactic of creating accountability too.

01:52:38: Right?

01:52:41: Which is basically fixed schools and I don't know from my understanding they are penetrating deeper and deeper in there picking like one district at a time but some extent using that same playbook of going on the ground and getting local residents involved in questions for their children.

01:53:07: So I think somewhere old playbooks still work, it still perturbs and really unsettles those who do not want to be held accountable.

01:53:27: One distinction is between violent and non-violent, but the connected distinction.

01:53:34: And here I will borrow a leaf from my daughter who's also very thoughtful activist.

01:53:40: So one of the shift is from protest against the bars in this world The corruption and the capture on everything.

01:53:48: we've been speaking with Two movements that produce the goods of this world.

01:53:54: And in fact, it's also a technical term public good and local public good.

01:53:59: so schools are you know they're quintessential public goods.

01:54:04: .And here is the movement in India co-coach movement encouraging people to claim those spaces for their kids better spaces For there kids.

01:54:15: but we saw delinquent Berlin when because they put So much emphasis on housing.

01:54:22: And that there were also before, in addition to being a party movement In local neighborhoods etc.

01:54:31: So you have this idea and then you have other movements Local communities created again around the collective provision of renewable energy in Greek islands and elsewhere.

01:54:45: so I think That's something we wanted all think about.

01:54:49: how this kind non-state based provision of local goods and through also these village councils that Chalini was talking about.

01:55:00: You know, if you aggregate all of those and connect them to networks of descent but also networks.

01:55:13: then you start having a movement that is really, really grounded and can push back against the very powerful actors that capture our state in our wealth.

01:55:28: Thank You Kalypso!

01:55:29: Luca?

01:55:30: Yeah quickly regarding non-violent struggle but more precisely non violent struggle in Serbia it's important to remember that Serbia as a country cannot and will not respond well to any violence, political violence in the streets.

01:55:49: And violence against other Serbs because personally informally we had war in the nineties.

01:55:55: A couple of them people are sick and tired.

01:55:58: then there is enough bloodshed for next few generations.

01:56:02: Besides that, we have this tradition of non-violent struggle with the movement against Fubada Milosevic which inspired from dictatorship to democracy by Jane Sharpe.

01:56:16: Which details the non-violence struggle and also leans on Gandhi's movements as well.

01:56:25: During our protests in the beginning of our blockades We studied these texts read a lot about, you know there's this fifty points of non-violent struggle which were written by former ODPOR members and it has been proven very useful.

01:56:39: A couple things I personally learned through the struggle that we have been leading for these past years.

01:56:47: First informally You had to set the narrative decides what is being talked about and have the opponent respond to you, that has been proven time-and-time again.

01:57:02: To be the most important thing in our case.

01:57:06: second one is definitely Being direct and honest about what you demand.

01:57:13: Knowing people knowing why they're at your protest makes them believe anew And in the idea.

01:57:19: more.

01:57:19: and third and probably most important on When you're going to organize a protest, make sure to measure the streets where we are gonna walk because when bring the banner and not hit on cars parked in sidewalk.

01:57:33: That has been very invaluable for past two years.

01:57:36: so besides that I think the rest of you can read these books.

01:57:42: Thank You Luca!

01:57:44: Anand Can i give you thirty seconds for last reply?

01:57:47: Then ill wrap it up really quickly.

01:57:49: thankyou No, I just wanted to respond by saying that in the land of Gandhi non-violence is never going to become not cool.

01:57:57: So at least in the language and organizing tactics for political elite none violence will ever go away.

01:58:04: we saw it as a recent protest too.

01:58:06: there was an emphasis on peaceful character throughout which i think also necessitated by brutality.

01:58:14: state moment even slightest indication any militant potential.

01:58:20: the government comes down with a sledgehammer, even when there isn't any militant potential.

01:58:24: The government comes on this sledge hammer and accuses you of planning in conspiring for violence at a later stage.

01:58:30: so I don't think that's going to change.

01:58:32: but one chance that i have indeed noticed and it would be interesting too all of you is that non-elite average common person their inclination for violence their endorsement of violence has increased because the moral charge of non-violence has declined.

01:58:49: We don't have a Gandhi like figure who gives legitimacy to the idea of non violence, so I met a lot.

01:58:55: working class people during the Delhi protest would say that if i go there with stick when police officer comes for me can give it back right?

01:59:04: So I heard that too.

01:59:06: thankfully we didn't see that protests managed to de escalate beyond point.

01:59:10: but increasingly am seeing and this is been history in India is always imposed by the elite and violence comes from most oppressed people in reaction to everyday violence that they face.

01:59:23: So I hope it doesn't come because non-violence, this country's legacy stays like that way.

01:59:29: but yeah i thought my duty was pointing at you also happening.

01:59:33: And a very powerful closing message.

01:59:36: so actually don't want much of that.

01:59:38: we are over time by minute or two.

01:59:41: let me just wrap up thanking everybody particularly the speakers for having.

01:59:46: on the time today.

01:59:48: I want to still share a reminder, of course that i'm walking away from this meeting with more questions than I had coming in.

01:59:54: so obviously this space is valuable and we want to continue doing it.

02:00:00: but again I will repeat myself saying This Is A Crowdfunded Effort.

02:00:06: So if you feel like would like contribute please do You have link In The Chat.

02:00:11: More Generally Please Of Course Watch The Emails that we will be send, the updates from the power to people community for more conversations on this and other topics.

02:00:23: Again I want thank you all!

02:00:24: And i hope also walk out with some hopeful thoughts about what can actually do in our daily lives.

02:00:32: change course of history really.

02:00:35: So Thank You To All.

02:00:37: And for those who are also in Central European Summertime like us, have a good evening and probably a good dinner.

02:00:43: I know we have hold you two hours of conversation.

02:00:46: that will stay true to this promise.

02:00:49: Thanks again!

02:00:50: We'll be in touch.

02:01:07: Many, many thanks.

02:01:09: Indeed!

02:01:09: Thanks to the organizing team and all of the supporting cast which was incredible.

02:01:14: Fantastic!

02:01:15: Thank you everybody and have a good evening.